Inquiry into Pediatric Forensic Pathology in Ontario
January 16, 2008



Cross-examination of Dr. Rocco Gerace, Michele Mann and Elizabeth Doris, College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, by Suzan Fraser, counsel for Defence for Children International-Canada.

The following is an excerpt from the transcript of the Inquiry into Pediatric Forensic Pathology in Ontario. For the official transcript, or for more information about the Inquiry, visit the Inquiry web site: http://www.goudgeinquiry.ca.


[Page 1]

1
2
3 THE INQUIRY INTO PEDIATRIC FORENSIC
4 PATHOLOGY IN ONTARIO
5
6
7
8 ********************
9
10
11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE STEPHEN GOUDGE,
12 COMMISSIONER
13
14
15
16 Held at:
17 Offices of the Inquiry
18 180 Dundas Street West, 22nd Floor
19 Toronto, Ontario
20
21
22 ********************
23
24 January 16th, 2008
25

                            . . . . .

[Page 231]

16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUZAN FRASER:
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Good afternoon. My
18 name is Sue Fraser, and I'm here on behalf of a
19 children's rights organization called Defence for
20 Children International, and I have five (5) minutes for
21 questions, so I'll try to -- not to speak to quickly, but
22 I'm going to try and move quickly.
23 Dr. Gerace, it's fair to say that as part
24 of what the College does, in terms of public protection,
25 is to maintain a registry of its members history, so that


[Page 232]

1 the public can actually access discipline history if it
2 contacts the College either by telephone or through its
3 website?
4 DR. ROCCO GERACE: There is a -- there is
5 a listing of disciplinary findings on the website and can
6 be accessed by calling the College, that's correct.
7 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. But in the
8 -- in respect of cautions, that is not something that is
9 publically available if someone were to look at a
10 registration history either through their website or by
11 contacting the College.
12 Is that --
13 DR. ROCCO GERACE: That's --
14 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- fair?
15 DR. ROCCO GERACE: -- that's correct.
16 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And so
17 while it may be serious for somebody to appear before the
18 Complaints Committee to be cautioned, or to receive a
19 caution in another fashion, the significant difference
20 between that an discipline is -- is the degree to which
21 it's made public.
22 Is that fair?
23 DR. ROCCO GERACE: That is a significant
24 difference.
25 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Not the


[Page 233]

1 only one, clearly.
2 Now just in terms of --
3 DR. ROCCO GERACE: Could I just add that
4 that's not a decision of the College.
5 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yes.
6 DR. ROCCO GERACE: That that is a factor
7 of the legislation.
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right. Right. And
9 I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear, but I -- I
10 understood that personally. And so that you don't have a
11 -- you don't -- that's not something the College can
12 decide; there would be legislative change in order for
13 that case to be different?
14 DR. ROCCO GERACE: That's correct. And
15 indeed when -- in 19 -- about the year 2000, the -- the
16 Health Professions Regulatory Advisory Council made a
17 recommendation that verbal cautions -- cautions in person
18 be part of the pubic record.
19 That recommendation was made to government
20 in -- in consideration of legislative change. So that
21 has been considered. It was the view of the legislature
22 that that was not appropriate.
23 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
24 COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Is that
25 still the College position?


[Page 234]

1 DR. ROCCO GERACE: The College did -- did
2 not take a position. I can't recall. That was not the
3 College's position, that was the position of -- of HPRAC.
4 COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: I see.
5 DR. ROCCO GERACE: That was not a College
6 position.
7 COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: I see. The
8 College has no position on that particular --
9 DR. ROCCO GERACE: Not at the present
10 time that I'm aware of, no.
11
12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUZAN FRASER:
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And is that something
14 that you could personally support outside of your
15 position with the College?
16 DR. ROCCO GERACE: I'm here on behalf of
17 the College, I'm not sure it would be appropriate for me
18 to express --
19 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
20 DR. ROCCO GERACE: -- personal views.
21 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And when
22 another college, like the Saskatchewan, contacts you for
23 information, you talked about the mandatory reporting
24 information that would have been available if that -- if
25 things had gone that way with the Hospital for Sick


[Page 235]

1 Children.
2 Would information relating to a college be
3 available to another college in another jurisdiction?
4 DR. ROCCO GERACE: Information related to
5 a college, or to a caution?
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: I'm sorry, to a --
7 about a caution. So it's not generally available to the
8 public --
9 DR. ROCCO GERACE: That's correct.
10 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- information about a
11 caution; would it be available to another college?
12 DR. ROCCO GERACE: Generally speaking in
13 a certificate of standing, a caution represents the
14 completion of the matter and that is not generally
15 reported.
16 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. I'm
17 interested, Mr. Gerace, if the Complaint's Committee has
18 dealt with the matter, and subsequently to a matter -- to
19 the matter being dealt with, information becomes
20 available that would significantly have made a dif -- or
21 which appears to -- I don't know why I can't string my
22 words together, but I'll try and slow down, that might be
23 part of the problem.
24 If information comes to the College --
25 College's attention, that calls into question whether the


[Page 236]

1 Complaint's Committee had all the information available
2 to it, is there a way in which an investigation can be
3 reopened?
4 Does the College have its own
5 jurisdiction, or does it require a complaint by an
6 individual?
7 DR. ROCCO GERACE: I -- I would have to
8 get help with that. I'm not sure of the answer to that.
9 There's, I think, some indication that once a complaint
10 has been completed and closed, that the College no longer
11 has jurisdiction, but I would -- I would have to ask for
12 help in that.
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And in
14 terms of the jurisdictional component -- I'm shifting
15 gears to another area -- in terms of the jurisdiction of
16 the College over coroners acting in their administrative
17 capacities versus in a -- providing medical treatment or
18 acting in a medical capacity, I'm interested, Dr. Gerace,
19 if you have somebody who is a physician acting in the
20 capacity of Chief Coroner.
21 And I'm not going to make specific
22 reference to Dr. Young, but hypothetically, you have
23 somebody who's acting in that chief position of public
24 trust, but also wearing the hat of Chief Coroner who
25 appears to have mislead a -- the regulatory college,


[Page 237]

1 their own regulator college.
2 Would that be something that the College
3 would take jurisdiction over?
4 DR. ROCCO GERACE: The College will take
5 -- will receive any complaints from members of the
6 public. And the College will -- will certainly consider
7 any complaints about any doctor from a member of the
8 public.
9 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So in the
10 case of somebody whose duties -- who are a physician, but
11 whose duties might not be day to day providing of medical
12 treatment, the College does receive complaints and does
13 deal with complaints about those physicians?
14 DR. ROCCO GERACE: Yes, yes.
15 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Thank you.
16 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.