Inquiry into Pediatric Forensic Pathology in Ontario
January 15, 2008



Cross-examination of Sgt. Larry Charmley and Cst. Scott Kirkland, Peterborough Police, by Suzan Fraser, counsel for Defence for Children International-Canada.

The following is an excerpt from the transcript of the Inquiry into Pediatric Forensic Pathology in Ontario. For the official transcript, or for more information about the Inquiry, visit the Inquiry web site: http://www.goudgeinquiry.ca.


[Page 1]

1
2
3 THE INQUIRY INTO PEDIATRIC FORENSIC
4 PATHOLOGY IN ONTARIO
5
6
7
8 ********************
9
10
11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE STEPHEN GOUDGE,
12 COMMISSIONER
13
14
15
16 Held at:
17 Offices of the Inquiry
18 180 Dundas Street West, 22nd Floor
19 Toronto, Ontario
20
21
22 ********************
23
24 January 15th, 2008
25
                            . . . . .

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2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUZAN FRASER:
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Thank you
14 Commissioner. Officers, my name is Sue Fraser, and I'm
15 here on behalf of a children's rights organization called
16 Defence for Children. And, Officer Kirkland, I just have
17 a couple questions that I need to -- your assistance
18 with.
19 Am I right that when you attended with
20 Jenna's body in Toronto, that you were going in your
21 capacity as a forensic IDENT officer with a facilitating
22 homicide investigation? Is that the reason that you went
23 with the body?
24 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: Yes, that's right.
25 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And did


[Page 176]

1 you know when you were going that you were going to the
2 Ontario Forensic Pediatric Pathology Unit? Did you know
3 that it, sort of, had that title, and you were going to
4 Dr. Smith in his capacity as Director of that Unit?
5 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: I don't think I was
6 aware of the title. I knew I was going to the Sick
7 Children's Hospital, and --
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
9 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: -- at that time I
10 knew which floor. I've forgotten now.
11 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And did
12 you have the knowledge as to who Dr. Smith was and that
13 he was considered one (1) of the leading pediatric
14 forensic pathologists?
15 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: Yes, I'd already had
16 photographed post-mortems that he conducted --
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
18 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: -- at -- at that
19 site.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And you
21 took your own photographs there, and you left with your
22 own photographs, as I understand it. But you left with
23 no other record of the exhibits that were taken or the
24 evidence that was taken at the post-mortem, is that -- is
25 that fair?


[Page 177]

1 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: I didn't have a
2 list, nor was I aware of -- of exactly what fluids and
3 swabs and -- and whatever evidence that Dr. Smith took,
4 or -- or he directed his assistants to take.
5 I, in the normal course of events, I
6 wouldn't have. That's -- that's an internal thing with -
7 - with them. And any follow up as far as submitting
8 evidence would be done by them.
9 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And -- and when you
10 say, "them", you've given us your evidence as to who else
11 was in attendance, and I take it that there was no other
12 officer who was there in attendance at the autopsy?
13 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: No, I was the only
14 one.
15 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So -- and
16 was there any protocol at the time that guided you as to
17 what to do -- or did -- did they tell you that that was
18 the practice and procedure?
19 What -- I'm just interested -- maybe I'll
20 put it another way is, had you done -- attended at other
21 autopsies in that same capacity?
22 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: Many, yes.
23 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And you've
24 given your evidence, I think, that the practice would be
25 different, that you would -- you would be responsible for


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1 the recording of the exhibits, is that fair?
2 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: No. No, I -- I
3 would never be responsible for recording the exhibits
4 that were submitted by the pathologist or his -- his
5 office.
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
7 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: The only exhibits
8 that I'd be responsible for is ones that I took with me,
9 and that would generally be physical evidence such as
10 clothing or anything found on the body during the post-
11 mortem. It wouldn't be submitted at the time.
12 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So in your
13 experience in both with Dr. Smith's autopsies, and the
14 other autopsies that you have attended, but the
15 pathologist keeps their own record of the exhibits taken?
16 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: Yes.
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And in the
18 non-Dr. Smith autopsies, how have the pathologists been
19 assisted in terms of recording what's taken through their
20 own office or through their own assistant?
21 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: They've done it
22 internally. It is -- it's never -- it's never been
23 something that I was involved with in any way at all.
24 It's just standard practice, I assume, for pathologists
25 to make a determination of what they're going to take and


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1 what they're going to submit to the Centre as far as
2 toxicology or whatever other examinations they want made.
3 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
4 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: And those are done
5 by them.
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And would
7 there be any benefit to you in receiving knowledge of, or
8 a copy of the list of exhibits -- samples seized by the
9 pathologist?
10 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: Not -- not a benefit
11 for me in -- in my duties, but it would definitely be a
12 benefit for the investigating officer.
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: I see. And do you see
14 any reason, based on your experience in attending
15 autopsies, that you couldn't leave the autopsy suite or
16 the autopsy room with a copy of that list once you head
17 back to your own jurisdiction?
18 MR. SCOTT KIRKLAND: If it was prepared
19 by then, but I -- I don't even know when they -- they've
20 done it. I assume that whatever they do is -- is maybe
21 later typed up and, it may even be a day later or
22 something when those submissions are actually made.
23 I -- I have no knowledge of that.
24 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Thank you,
25 sir. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.