Inquiry into Pediatric Forensic Pathology in Ontario
December 4, 2007



Cross-examination of Dr. James Young, former Chief Coroner of Ontario, by Suzan Fraser, counsel for Defence for Children International-Canada.

The following is an excerpt from the transcript of the Inquiry into Pediatric Forensic Pathology in Ontario. For the official transcript, or for more information about the Inquiry, visit the Inquiry web site: http://www.goudgeinquiry.ca.


[Page 1]

1
2
3 THE INQUIRY INTO PEDIATRIC FORENSIC
4 PATHOLOGY IN ONTARIO
5
6
7
8 ********************
9
10
11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE STEPHEN GOUDGE,
12 COMMISSIONER
13
14
15
16 Held at:
17 Offices of the Inquiry
18 180 Dundas Street West, 22nd Floor
19 Toronto, Ontario
20
21
22 ********************
23
24 December 4th 2007
25

                            . . . . .

[Page 114]

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUZAN FRASER:
7 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Thank you,
8 Commissioner. Dr. Young, my name is Sue Fraser, and I'm
9 here on behalf of an organization called Defence for
10 Children International Canada. And that is an
11 international organization, which is founded in Geneva
12 and its goal is to protect and promote the rights of the
13 child as spelled out in the UN Convention.
14 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Okay.
15 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. And I'm going
16 to be -- I've been asked to be judicious with my
17 questions, and I'll ask, if you can, to be judicious with
18 your answers. I've framed some of them that are capable
19 of being answered yes or no, so that we could have time
20 to talk about the issues I'm interested in hearing from
21 you about.
22 DR. JAMES YOUNG: If I can.
23 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right, thank you.
24 You acknowledged yesterday that you were sorry for those
25 who may have been wrongfully convicted and you recognized


[Page 115]

1 those people -- that some people may have been wrongfully
2 convicted and you also recognized that people lost their
3 children either temporarily or permanently.
4 You recall that?
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes. And that people
6 were charge -- some people were charged and ultimately
7 let go.
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yes.
9 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I had the three (3)
10 categories of people.
11 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. And I'm just --
12 I wanted to bring to your attention that the flipside of
13 that and those that weren't mentioned -- but I'm sure it
14 was through inadvertent -- were the children who lost
15 their parents.
16 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I -- I have never lost
17 sight of the fact that -- that a child died in each and
18 every one of these cases and that it's certainly on my
19 mind, at all times.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And that
21 surviving children, some of those children lost -- lost
22 their parents? All right?
23 And they were -- you're familiar that at
24 least Joshua's brother was placed in foster care and
25 ultimately adopted into that family? Do you --


[Page 116]

1 DR. JAMES YOUNG: That's -- that's the
2 reference I'm making to -- that's what I'm referring to
3 when I say children were either placed for a period of
4 time or permanently.
5 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
6 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I'm -- I'm aware of
7 that; that's what my reference was in -- in --
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
9 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- to that, even though
10 I'm not aware of the case.
11 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And until
12 those charges and the issue of whether the person is
13 wrongfully convicted, those children would be sent to be
14 raised by people who thought of their parents as abusers
15 and killers?
16 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I understand that.
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And I
18 think that, based on what you've told me, you understand
19 that those children are the most vulnerable and that to
20 the extent it's possible their voices need to be heard?
21 Some of these children were too young to have their
22 voices heard in the process.
23 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
24 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So can we
25 start from the object -- the object of a death


[Page 117]

1 investigation is to get a right answer about how a person
2 comes to their end, that's sort of the ideal here.
3 Is that fair?
4 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
5 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And that
6 has a number of effects that we -- we learn from those
7 deaths are preventable deaths, that's one (1) affect?
8 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
9 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And that if somebody
10 is culpable in the death that they will be apprehended
11 and dealt with by the criminal justice system?
12 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And so to
14 the extent that forensic science and forensic pathology
15 can assist in that accountability in the criminal justice
16 system, it's important that the science be the best that
17 it can be?
18 DR. JAMES YOUNG: It can assist both ways
19 in deciding that something is or isn't culpable.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And you
21 are aware that pathologists also act as actors in the
22 child protection proceedings?
23 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
24 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
25 DR. JAMES YOUNG: All -- all physicians


[Page 118]

1 do.
2 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And that
3 comes in part of the role as being State actors as part
4 of an investigation?
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes. And -- and --
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And duties arising
7 under the Child and Family Services Act?
8 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Which requires
9 everyone, but particularly people like doctors and -- and
10 -- to be part of that -- that system and to report and
11 cooperate with the system.
12 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And you
13 have specifically, in the time that you were Chief
14 Coroner, reminded coroners of their obligation to report
15 under the Child and Family Services Act?
16 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And my
18 question for you then is that to the extent that that is
19 something that your office must do by law, and does do by
20 history and convention and by direction of your office,
21 is there any program that the Office of the Chief Coroner
22 had to monitor where and when pathologists or doctors
23 operating under the coroner's system, give that kind of
24 evidence?
25 DR. JAMES YOUNG: No. We weren't aware


[Page 119]

1 of -- we had no program for when anyone was going to
2 court because they go to court right across the Province
3 and most of them aren't our employees. So we -- no, we
4 were unaware of anyone going to court for any
5 circumstance.
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So if you
7 were asked to identify where and when Dr. Smith gave
8 evidence in a child protection proceeding, you would not
9 be able to do that?
10 DR. JAMES YOUNG: No. Or any other
11 pathologist or any other coroner in the Province.
12 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And in -- in the event
13 that a pathologist who was involved in a death
14 investigation is asked to give evidence in a child
15 protection proceeding, do they bill the Attorney Gen --
16 who do they bill for their services?
17 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I would assume either
18 the Attorney General or the -- or the Children's Aid
19 Society. I don't know, I've not had any personal
20 experience with it but I -- it wouldn't be our office in
21 any event.
22 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And I
23 suppose it is possible that Dr. Smith or other
24 pathologists gave evidence that resulted in someone being
25 made a Crown ward or taken away from their parents where


[Page 120]

1 there were no criminal charges.
2 Is that -- is that possible?
3 DR. JAMES YOUNG: It's certainly
4 possible.
5 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And do you think it's
6 probable?
7 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I suppose in -- in and
8 about surrounding the -- there may be a death of a child
9 and then there were other siblings, yes, it would seem to
10 me that it may well have happened.
11 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. You have
12 essentially said that good pathology depends on a good
13 death investigation team.
14 Is that fair?
15 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Sorry? That good --
16 MS. SUZAN FRASER: I'm paraphrasing you:
17 but if you're going to get good pathology you need a good
18 investigating team? The coroner side needs to be --
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I don't think I put it
20 that way. I think -- I think a good investigation
21 requires a good team --
22 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yes.
23 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- that includes good
24 pathology.
25 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right. And good


[Page 121]

1 pathology also depends on the way that the investigation
2 is conducted?
3 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well, that's the team.
4 I mean, that's --
5 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay.
6 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- the information;
7 that's a good police investigation; it's good lab; it's
8 good other experts, radiology or neuropathology or
9 whatever; whatever is necessary for that case. It means
10 pulling it all together.
11 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. And we have
12 been -- the overview reports have primarily focussed on
13 children who were in the care of their parents or an
14 alternative caregiver, but you are aware that children do
15 also die in institutions in this Province.
16 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Those would include
18 young offender institutions, they might include group
19 homes or children's mental health facilities?
20 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes, and we would
21 investigate those. Yes.
22 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And those
23 deaths are somewhat unique because they occur in a closed
24 setting; something that's not generally open to the
25 public to see what happens behind the doors?


[Page 122]

1 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
2 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And so those children
3 are particularly vulnerable and the Act speaks to that by
4 making those types of deaths reportable and in some cases
5 making inquests mandatory?
6 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
7 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Now those
8 -- those deaths raise particular challenges in terms of
9 an investigation because there may be licensing
10 standards, there may be all types of communication books,
11 that I think, based on your experience you can tell us
12 that when you're investigating a death in custody the
13 investigation becomes more complex.
14 Is that fair?
15 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well, they add elements
16 -- they add different elements to the investigation,
17 which we're aware and would -- would cover. The actual
18 investigation may turn out to me or less complex then any
19 other one.
20 They're -- they're -- every investigation
21 is different. That's the thing with -- with all of this
22 work, is it's very complex and very different in each
23 case.
24 But that adds whole elements that have to
25 be looked at very carefully, just as a death in custody


[Page 123]

1 or death in any institutional setting raises some unique
2 features to that institution.
3 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And just -
4 - I did not see it in the coroner's investigating manual,
5 any specific protocols as to what for look -- what to
6 look for when investigating a death in custody or someone
7 who -- a child who's died in a group home.
8 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well what -- what would
9 happen in that particular instance, the coroner wouldn't
10 -- at the time is going to -- what -- what the manual
11 deals with is the investigation at the initial time, when
12 -- you know, any unique features that they have to do.
13 But what they would do is order the
14 autopsy. But once -- in all of those instances there --
15 a coroner's investigator would be assigned, and the first
16 thing that they -- and there would be a police officer
17 assigned to the coroner.
18 And they -- out of training and -- and
19 route would know, then, they go and get policy manuals
20 and -- and investigate all of those features, because
21 that's -- that's the way it's done, and they know that.
22 And that would be what we would be looking
23 for. And that would certainly be what the regional
24 coroner would be looking for.
25 MS. SUZAN FRASER: So what you're telling


[Page 124]

1 me is that those deaths are treated as somewhat either
2 contentious or suspicious, such that it was necessary to
3 engage a police officer to assist in the investigation.
4 Is that fair?
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well a death within an
6 institution would -- would -- I mean, if there was any --
7 any cause of concern on the -- on the part of the coroner
8 that it was going to require -- any death, period, if it
9 requires more investigation, the Coroners Act allows that
10 a police officer is assigned and does that -- that
11 background work on behalf of the coroner.
12 That's -- that's a feature of the Act.
13 But more often than not, in an institutional death the
14 police would be called in and would be assisting the
15 coroner. That would -- that would happen on a
16 percentage-wide basis more often than it would in -- in
17 other types of deaths.
18 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. All right.
19
20 (BRIEF PAUSE)
21
22 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Dr. Young, are you
23 aware that over the years, either through recommendation
24 of juries -- at least one (1) jury -- and also through
25 other organizations, that there has been a call for there


[Page 125]

1 to be a comprehensive death review process when children
2 die?
3 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well there is a
4 comprehensive death review process when children die if
5 they -- if the circumstances are other then a natural
6 death. In a hospital if someone expected to die, the
7 coroner's office is involved.
8 And then we have the paediatric review and
9 the -- the Death Under Two Committee, and those
10 mechanisms exist. And then the possibility of an
11 inquest.
12 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Are you
13 aware in that there are criticisms of the Paediatric
14 Death Review Committee? And I think that Dr. Cairns
15 himself said he would have liked to have been able to
16 republish the report?
17 He did in 2007, a lot earlier, but he did
18 not have the funding to do that.
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yeah, I mean things in
20 government always come down to how much funding is there.
21 We fortunately have the money to run the Committee.
22 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yes.
23 DR. JAMES YOUNG: But turning out reports
24 costs a good deal of money as well, because it's not just
25 the -- the publishing's the small part of it. It's the


[Page 126]

1 preparation of it, the writing of it, the vetting of it
2 that takes time.
3 And -- and that -- that takes manpower and
4 money. And I'm -- I'm not familiar with exactly where
5 things are at now, because I haven't been in the office
6 for the last few years, so.
7 But -- but along the development, that's
8 always been the issue, is -- is we can take it this far,
9 but we haven't got the money to publish a yearly report.
10 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So I just
11 want to talk to you about the things that would be
12 beneficial in terms of a death review process and whether
13 you can -- you would agree with me on these or not.
14 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Okay.
15 MS. SUZAN FRASER: One (1) --
16 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I'm -- I'm certainly
17 not the expert in this. I mean, Dr. Cairns is --
18 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- better qualified
20 than I am, but --
21 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right. But I -- I
22 want to ask you the questions anyway.
23 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Okay.
24 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And you can tell me
25 whether you agree or disagree. Over the years it has


[Page 127]

1 been recommended that there be power for the Committee to
2 publish those recommendations and publish them widely?
3 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yeah. Subject to --
4 again, what would come to mind -- and I don't have the
5 answer for you, sort of a -- in an instant -- we have to
6 be very careful about the privacy concerns.
7 In this -- in this province our Act is set
8 up in such a way that privacy is prec -- takes precedent.
9 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. Let's put those
10 aside. Let's put --
11 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well, it's an important
12 consideration --
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: If we can stay -- we
14 can deal with those.
15 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- though. It's --
16 it's a very important consideration. In other provinces
17 in the country the legislation is the reverse, and -- and
18 the -- the public side of death investigation is the
19 norm. In this province it's not. The privacy is -- is
20 the paramount --
21 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay, let's --
22 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- feature, so that --
23 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Let me just put it --
24 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- that can create a
25 problem.


[Page 128]

1 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- another way. As
2 Chief Coroner, when a jury makes recommendations, you as
3 Chief Coroner -- when you were Chief Coroner, it was part
4 of your job to circulate those recommendations widely and
5 to the people to whom they were directed.
6 Is that fair?
7 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Anyone who asked for
8 them got them, and they were sent very, very widely.
9 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right, but you
10 also took it upon yourself as part of your job to -- job
11 to send those recommendations --
12 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- to those who needed
14 to -- to hear about them?
15 DR. JAMES YOUNG: But they're very
16 different from a report.
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay, but let's just -
18 - I just want to stop with --
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Okay.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- the rec -- there's
21 a value in circulating those recommendations?
22 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Absolutely.
23 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Rather
24 than making recommendations to a particular institution,
25 to make the recommendations widely --


[Page 129]

1 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Mm-hm.
2 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- so that other
3 institutions can learn from one (1) institution's
4 mistakes. You'll agree with me that that --
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Absolutely.
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- that's beneficial?
7 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Absolutely.
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. And it would be
9 important that those recommendations be made in a timely
10 fashion?
11 DR. JAMES YOUNG: As timely as can be.
12 It -- these things are complex and they take time, but
13 yes.
14 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So using
15 co-sleeping as an example, if the Coroner's Office has a
16 concern about co-sleeping, let's make it known widely and
17 as soon as we can, because this is an issue for -- that
18 people face every day.
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And would
21 you also agree that to the extent that information is
22 gathered on a child's death, that that information be
23 coded and stored as part of a database so that we can
24 start to accumulate evidence as to how children come to
25 their end?


[Page 130]

1 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yeah, the principle I
2 agree with. The -- the problem can be in the detail. I
3 mean, when you start now talking about databases, the
4 question I ask back is, What are you coding? How
5 extensively? Who's doing it? How do you set up the
6 databank? Who pays for it?
7 You know it -- it's -- the intent is abs -
8 - I -- I agree with, but you know, I'm the guy who would
9 always have to find the money, too, and --
10 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right.
11 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- you know, to do a
12 really good databank, that really means you sub-code and
13 you do a whole lot of work. And you have to develop a
14 computer program for that, and someone has to care and
15 feed it.
16 Would it be, ultimately, a source of
17 valuable information? Absolutely, but it --
18 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- it's not as simple
20 as just saying, Well, let's -- let's gather this and
21 let's publish it. It's -- it's a whole lot more
22 complicated.
23 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay, but there would
24 be -- the devil always being in the details, the -- the
25 value of having that information so that we can have


[Page 131]

1 evidence-based medicine is something that you can
2 appreciate.
3 Is that fair?
4 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Absolutely. I'm not
5 questioning the -- the motive, just the -- how you get
6 there.
7 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Now, I
8 meant to ask you when I asked you the questions about the
9 evidence that forensic pathologists give in child
10 protection proceedings whether if the Commissioner sees
11 fit to make recommendations about pediatric forensic
12 pathology as it applies to the Criminal Justice System,
13 in terms of the way that evidence is presented, the
14 tracking of that evidence.
15 Can you see those types of recommendations
16 also having relevance to child protection proceedings?
17 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Because of the
18 importance of these proceedings, I mean they --
19 essentially our -- they're -- they're not a from of
20 criminal trial, but they certainly take on that
21 significance within family dynamics. So yes, I -- I
22 understand your point and agree.
23 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right.
24
25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


[Page 132]

1 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Just two (2) small
2 other areas or two (2) short other areas, Dr. Young.
3 Sometimes, just picking up a point, criminal proceedings,
4 if there was an issue about whether you were going to
5 have an inquest and you wanted to have an inquest, but
6 there was also a criminal justice process in play --
7 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Mm-hm.
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- the Coroner's
9 Office would wait for the criminal process to come to an
10 end. Is that right?
11 DR. JAMES YOUNG: We must -- the only
12 time we can do other than that is with a waiver from the
13 Minister. It's -- statutorily we can't proceed when
14 there's a criminal proceeding --
15 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right, and you don't
16 want --
17 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- without a waiver for
18 the Minister.
19 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay, and that --
20 DR. JAMES YOUNG: And there's good reason
21 for that.
22 MS. SUZAN FRASER: You don't want to
23 interfere with somebody's right to a fair trial.
24 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Exactly. And -- and
25 you're -- you're holding a broad hearing in an issue that


[Page 133]

1 is going to be litigated and -- and affect the freedom of
2 someone, so you -- it takes precedence first.
3 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And it's fair to say,
4 then, in those cases the Coroner's Office would monitor
5 the outcome of the criminal proceedings because the
6 coroner's office might, at the end of the day, decide
7 whether they were going to have an inquest based on what
8 happens at the criminal proceeding?
9 DR. JAMES YOUNG: If we were planning on
10 -- I mean, if we had made a commitment or a decision that
11 we were going to have a -- an inquest, in that case, we
12 would monitor tho -- that subset of -- of cases. That
13 would be the only subset that we would.
14 I mean, we -- most of these cases if
15 they're going to be a criminal hearing, you know, aren't
16 necessarily going to be an inquest, but -- but in the
17 ones that -- where we had decided, yes, that's -- that's
18 a case we may do that then someone would -- would follow
19 that.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So I'm
21 just thinking about Amber's case, and if you have a judge
22 who doesn't understand the evidence or if there's an
23 issue about people not understanding Shaken Baby
24 Syndrome, as there was a concern at the time, that might
25 be the kind of case that you might want to have an


[Page 134]

1 inquest about?
2 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I don't think -- I
3 don't recall any discussion about having an inquest in
4 that case. There was no -- at the time we -- we
5 concentrated on that case and it was not a -- it -- it
6 was not something that we contemplated having -- it would
7 very hard to hold an inquest into --
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: I'm -- I don't want
9 talk specifically about that case. My question was posed
10 as a hypothetical just in -- in that kind of situation
11 where there's an --
12 DR. JAMES YOUNG: But -- but even the
13 issue of -- of -- I mean, you might -- you might look at
14 the issue of -- in general of -- of shaken baby in the
15 sense that you want warn people --
16 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yes.
17 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- not to shake babies,
18 but the issue -- you know, you've got to be very careful
19 you stay out of court rulings and -- and what was decided
20 in a trial, so when you pick a case and -- and it's been
21 to trial you can get into an awful mess in the courtroom
22 about who said what and -- and whether the judgment was
23 fair, whether it wasn't.
24 It -- it becomes an -- an enormous
25 management issue in the inc -- because I've experienced


[Page 135]

1 this in other cases for other reasons. And it's --
2 MS. SUZAN FRASER: But -- but it can be
3 done. And certainly in Kassandra's case, there was a
4 criminal trial and then there was an inquest.
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: There are -- there are
6 times. It 's-- it's -- yes, it's difficult to do, but
7 you can do it in some cases.
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And, Mr.
9 Court, I'm just winding up on a final point, if I may --
10 or Mr. Commissioner, sorry.
11 COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: I
12 understand the mistake.
13 DR. JAMES YOUNG: I just wish I was
14 running this by myself.
15
16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUZAN FRASER:
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Sometimes I feel like
18 you are, Dr. Young.
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: It comes with
20 experience, you know. I have run a few in my life.
21 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So let's
22 just talk briefly about that. During the time that you
23 were Chief Coroner you were apor -- appointed by Order in
24 Council or by Cabinet. That's a -- the way that the
25 appointment is made, is that fair?


[Page 136]

1 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
2 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And your coroners who
3 reported to you, those are also appointments that were
4 made by Cabinet?
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yes.
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And are the -- the
7 Office of the Chief Coroner, during that period of time,
8 did you have specific term; did you have security of
9 tenure?
10 DR. JAMES YOUNG: No, I -- I was
11 appointed at the pleasure of the government, so I had a -
12 - a no -- no-fixed term.
13 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And
14 similarly, the coroners who were appointed --
15 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Till age seventy (70).
16 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. Coroners
17 are appointed till age seventy (70)?
18 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Or as long as they may
19 -- remain resident in the area where they're appointed.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. So they
21 have security of tenure?
22 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well, not total
23 security. They're at the pleasure of the Crown, but they
24 have -- the appointment is until age seventy (70) and --
25 and it -- or un -- or they move. But the pleasure of the


[Page 137]

1 -- of the government is a very broad term that one
2 wouldn't describe as full tenure.
3 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. All right.
4
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Deputy ministers serve
6 at the pleasure of the government too. And the --
7 sometimes the pleasure changes and you don't need reasons
8 of -- that would fall under the occ -- under labour law
9 in order to -- to remove someone.
10 So there -- it's a different -- it's a
11 very different appointment then --
12 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yes.
13 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- what you would
14 describe as tenure at a university or something like
15 that.
16 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. But you're
17 familiar that the legislature had independent officers,
18 the Ombudsman, the privacy commissioner and --
19 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Who are fixed term.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And they
21 are appointed, essentially, by all party committees and
22 they basically have tenure for that fixed term --
23 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Mm-hm.
24 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- that they're
25 appointed for?


[Page 138]

1 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yeah.
2 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And they do not report
3 to a minister?
4 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well, they report to
5 the legislature.
6 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right.
7 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Yeah.
8 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And they're -- most
9 recently, there's a third independent office, that I can
10 think of, appointed, which is the new Provincial Advocate
11 for Children and Youth. That is now a independent
12 office?
13 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Mm-hm.
14 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. And you're
15 familiar with that. And -- and the Commissioner had some
16 questions to you -- for you earlier about the value of
17 being -- I took it, as being the values being separate
18 from the Minister or being an agency, and you talked
19 about some of the problems with agency funding, and you
20 talked about there being advantages to having both of
21 those roles. But can you see some value to the Coroner's
22 Office being an independent office?
23 DR. JAMES YOUNG: There has been no
24 problem with it being an independent office. So, in my
25 mind, you're fixing a problem that doesn't exist; it's --


[Page 139]

1 it has not had a problem. In the twenty-five (25) years
2 I was in the Office, it had no problem with --
3 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And --
4 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- independence. It --
5 we operated it without interference from the Minister.
6 You can put it wherever but the -- the critical thing for
7 me is you've got to pay attention to who -- who are you
8 relating to; are you still in the area of government
9 where your -- the people that you need to relate to are -
10 - like the Centre of Forensic Science, in particular;
11 have you got access to funding.
12 Those are -- what makes a good office is
13 good leadership, a good Act and good funding, and that's
14 what you really need.
15 Where it's placed is less important but
16 it, frankly, hasn't been a problem to be where it is.
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: And would you
18 acknowledge, Dr. Young, that some -- some individuals --
19 members of -- members of the family of a deceased person
20 who died in custody might have a concern about the
21 appearance of the Office of the Chief Coroner being part
22 of the same Ministry that is also in charge of the
23 institution? The appearance of --
24 DR. JAMES YOUNG: In a Corrections --
25 MS. SUZAN FRASER: -- that --


[Page 140]

1 DR. JAMES YOUNG: Well, Corrections was
2 in and out of the Ministry with some regularity. It was
3 in about half the time and out about half the time --
4 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yeah.
5 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- because it's one (1)
6 of those ministries government moves around.
7 I suppose, but you have to weigh that
8 against the risk of moving it outside and moving outside
9 of the sphere with the Centre of Forensic Science.
10 If -- I would certainly suggest if you
11 move one (1), you move them both because, you now, to
12 separate -- as soon as you start separating people out,
13 you fix one (1) problem, and you create another one.
14 Every action you always take in a government, you have to
15 always look at the inadvertent reaction and the problem
16 that it creates.
17 MS. SUZAN FRASER: All right. My --
18 DR. JAMES YOUNG: And Walkerton was a
19 great example.
20 MS. SUZAN FRASER: My -- my question, Dr.
21 Young, had been about the appearance -- if I recall my
22 question -- had been about the appearance that some
23 people might have.
24 DR. JAMES YOUNG: But if you solve the
25 appearance --


[Page 141]

1 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Yes?
2 DR. JAMES YOUNG: -- you may create
3 another problem that we'd be sitting, ten (10) years down
4 the line in this room, solving and that is that -- that
5 you've isolated the Office and you've set it in an
6 environment where it's no longer working as closely with
7 the people it needs to work with.
8 So you -- there are pluses and minuses to
9 all these. And that's all I'm saying is that I understand
10 your point, and I -- I accept that point but there's a
11 downside to it as well, or there's a risk to it as well.
12 MS. SUZAN FRASER: Thank you. Thank you,
13 Dr. Young. Thank you, Commissioner, those are my
14 questions.